John Ankerberg: Welcome to our program. We’ve got a great one for you today. This is a really important topic: Is same-sex marriage a civil right? This is one of the key questions today. And I want you to know that our program is a reflection of both my deep love for the homosexual community, as well as my deep concern for our nation if we legalize same-sex marriage. And let nobody say that Christians have to choose between loving homosexuals and opposing same-sex marriage. Love helps us see that there is a better way. Obviously, we in the heterosexual community, we must be concerned about our own sins, as we are about the homosexual community. And one thing is for sure, we must be concerned enough to speak out about any action, heterosexual or homosexual, that violates God’s intended plan for marriage and the family.
Now, folks, I’ve got a tremendous guest today. You’re going to love this man. It is Bishop Harry Jackson, Jr. Let me just tell you a little bit about this fellow. You’re looking at a man, he earned a Bachelor of Arts degree in English from the prestigious Williams College, then went on to Harvard, got his Masters of Business Administration from Harvard Business School. He was courted by Goldman Sachs. He actually worked in some Fortune 500 companies. And while there, God started to pull him into ministry, and he started a Bible study while he was working. And that Bible study eventually grew so big it turned into a church.
And then in 1988 God called him to be the Senior Pastor of Hope Christian Church in Washington, DC. You know what, it’s a thriving, multi-cultural congregation that now has over 3,000 people attending, consisting of 22 different nationalities. Listen, you got to be a special kind of man to be able to minister to all those folks. He’s also the Regional Bishop in the Fellowship of International Churches.
He’s an author; he’s written
The Black Contract with America on Moral Values,
Personal Faith, Public Policy and
The Truth in Black and White. He is the founder and chairman of the High Impact Leadership Coalition in Washington, DC, and Stand For Marriage, DC coalition. He writes a weekly column on Town Hall. He’s got two kids and his wife, and they live there in Washington.
Harry, I don’t know how you have time to breathe. And, you know, I want the folks, as we start out, we’ve got this fantastic topic that they all want to hear about. But first of all, people want to know, you had it all, Harry. You were a graduate from Harvard Business School, you were courted by Goldman Sachs, you had opportunities to make nothing but dollars, okay, the American dream. And how did you get from these Fortune 500 companies, into being a pastor of one of the largest churches in Washington, DC?
Bishop Harry Jackson, Jr.: Well, John, that’s a great question. Sometimes I look back, even a few years ago, and I said to myself, “Wow, what am I doing, how did I get here?” ’Cause, my grandfather went to second grade in school. He was one of the Gullah people from off the coast of South Carolina. And my grandmother was actually a kind of mulatto, and really their family had nothing, came from nothing. But they had a faith in God. And I was raised with an understanding that serving God should be paramount. And that I went, really for the money, went on to Harvard, as you talked about, and had a great experience there.
And one night the Lord really began to deal with me as I was in that process of looking at Goldman Sachs, specifically. That’s really where I wanted to be. And I could not sleep the night after my second or third interview down in New York City. I had just flown back to Boston, knew that they were really talking about a very serious opportunity for me. And I felt, in prayer, that I could not take the opportunity. I went in another direction, which took me to the little town of Corning, New York. There, working for what is now Corning Fiber Optics, I ultimately was a sales and marketing manager of a technical ceramics division. That was a great job.
But God called me to start a Bible study. As you said, it became a church. I had to make a choice a few years in. My wife, who is,… she is not shy, I’ll say it that way, came to me one day and said, “You’ve got to choose. You’ve got kids; you’ve got me; you have got this business thing you’re doing; and you’ve got all these people that are in the church. What are you going to do?” And it was at that time that I had to really surrender to the inward witness of the Holy Spirit in my life, raise up the church, and become someone who works there. The church became a multi-racial church. It really pre-shadowed… Everything I’m doing today, I can look back to that time and see it was preparation. We had PhDs in the church, and people with no degrees. It was ninety-some percent white, handful of blacks. Back in those days, in the 80’s, black people were not pastoring white people, it just wasn’t happening. But God gave me a love for the people in that community, and somehow they responded to the teaching and preaching of the word of God. And so that’s how we started, before God moved us to Washington, to a phone call I got late one evening, which we can talk about at some other point.
Ankerberg: Yeah, we’re going to come back to the church here. Let’s jump to our topic, Harry, because you’re a registered Democrat working with Tony Perkins, okay. In other words, you’ve collaborated in coauthoring a book together.
Jackson: Um-hum.
Ankerberg: And I love the fact, you got a Republican and a Democrat, and yet you are one of the few African American pastors in Washington, DC, that has taken a stand against the Obama Health Care program. And you have also taken this stand for traditional marriage, and so that when Proposition 8 was passed in California, and then afterwards the judge reversed it, I think you did more time on television than Larry King. I saw you on all of the networks. And I’d like to go through the interview that you had on CNN…
Jackson: Sure.
Ankerberg: …and some of the things that you said about why same-sex marriage is not a civil right. In fact, that was the whole topic for that segment of the program. On CNN, you started off by saying the institution of marriage is unique. Why did you say it’s unique, Harry?
Jackson: Well, I wanted to really focus on the fact that God pre-wired us for a certain kind of union, and that unlike the loving case that everybody talks about where a white man wanted to marry a colored woman, we’re talking about a fundamental transformation of an institution. Marriage redefinition is marriage destruction. It’s nothing less than that. And many of our listeners today, they don’t get it. I mean, they think, well, why can’t, you know, this gay guy just be happy? I want everybody to be happy. But the reality is, as a preacher of the gospel, there’s a certain standard. But beyond that, God gave us his commandments, because certain things aren’t good for us, no matter whether we’re born-again or not. And so, if you look generationally, John, I’m thinking about 20 years, 30 years from now, I’m looking at a black community that portends what the white and Hispanic communities are going to be about years from now. Our families are broken. And as I speak about this, sometimes it almost makes my heart break; it almost makes me weep. Folks say, “Why are you involved in all of this?” Well, I’m involved because I believe that God wants a dimension of protective grace that will come over this nation. And somebody’s got to stand up. And I guess I and you’ve been tagged by the Holy Spirit to do this.
Ankerberg: Yeah. I think a lot of our Christians don’t realize, Harry, that Proposition 8 passed simply because the black community came out. Over 70% voted for Proposition 8 in the African American community. Now, talk about what happened and then tell me about your statement that you made about US District Court, the judge’s decision in overturning that.
Jackson: Well, first of all, two thirds of the black community voted for marriage, just a little bit more than two thirds, nearly 70 percent. And it was really important, significant. We had some guys that went out to California, they did a lot of work, but they were more catalytic, John, in that pastors were waiting to be encouraged, but they just didn’t know how to put the strategies together. And then, when Tony Perkins from FRC, Focus on the Family, National Organization for Marriage, all came together, it was powerful. But I think that we were very successful at encouraging leaders to organize their people. One quick story, if I might interject this.
I’ll never forget being on the phone with one of the largest denominational leaders in California, the young man that I spent 20 years discipling, who is actually funded, his salary is paid for, by Tony Perkins at FRC. He spent five months out there. He gets us on the line and he’s saying, “Well, Bishop X, why isn’t this happening?” And they asked me a question. They said, “What party are you?” And I answered honestly, “I’m a Democrat.” He said, “So! Well, we thought this was just a Republican thing.” And I went on to tell him and remind him—very respectfully because of his position—that we are called to principle. We are called to promote the kingdom of God. We’re to seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness. And as I began to share that with the Bishop he said, “Yes, yes, you’re right.”
And I said, “I want to promise you something. I am not, in our engagement with your leaders, and in California, I am not going to try to get John McCain elected, or tear down at this particular point, Barack Obama. I am so concerned that, in this issue, my highest priority is to bring a coalition in blacks and whites. And if we don’t stop this, what’s going to happen to your grandkids?” You can imagine the discussion. And he said, “Alright.” This was less than six weeks before the election. He said, “Alright, I’ll go tell all my bishops. We’ll gather our men.” And this past year, in reflection, one of the major newsmakers said, “Well, the reason that Prop 8 passed is…” and they put the picture of this bishop up on the screen. And I was just thankful. It almost makes me weep to think about it. That young man…
Ankerberg: Took a stand.
Jackson: …took a stand. And some of us who consider ourselves little people, if we take a stand, we’ll influence the big shots and we’ll see the will of God done.
Ankerberg: Well, we’re going to take a break. When we come back, there’s a couple things I want our Christians to know. And number one is, the Heritage Foundation published an article, “The Price of Proposition 8.” And the folks in California that got behind it, and supported it, there were 25,000 acts of violence reported during that time period. I want you to tell me a few of those stories. I also want to come back to the statement that hit all the presses, all the newspapers about what you said about US District Court, the judge that overturned Proposition 8 in California, what this did to black voters, okay. We’re going to do all that when we come right back. Stick with us.
Ankerberg: Alright, we’re back. We’re talking with Bishop Harry Jackson, Jr., from Washington, DC. We’re talking about, is same-sex marriage a civil right. And, Harry, we all remember when Judge Vaughn [Walker] out there in California reversed the Proposition 8, the bill that the Californians had voted on, over seven million Californians voted on it, you appeared on CNN and made some statements that hit the press, and I’d like you to tell me what you said at that time. What did you think about the judge’s decision?
Jackson: Well, I thought it was absolutely infuriating. Now, two thirds of the California voters, including 70 percent of African Americans, had their right to vote stripped from them. You know, the quintessential civil right that everyone went for, Martin Luther King and others, was the right to vote. My own dad was threatened at gunpoint. All kinds of things happened. We paid a price, shed blood for the right to vote. And then an openly gay judge, who seemed to be obviously biased in his decision, takes that civil right. It’s not fair, and it’s not something that goes down easy. And, in fact, to imply that it’s racist—that we get a say in this major institution—really infuriates me. Because, really, we’re not talking about bigotry. This is a matter of biology. And men were not meant to be married to men; women not meant to be married to women. And so, where we are then, is that marriage really does require a husband and a wife. And if we lose sight of that and have a momentary decision that is based on appeasing someone that’s intimidating, infuriating, we’ll destroy the fabric of our families. We’re in a major, major time in history.
Ankerberg: What do you think about this shift that the society’s trying to make: that it’s not about the procreation of children and taking care of children and raising children, so that they have a mother and father, it’s really about the sexual desires of two adults—forget the kids?
Jackson: Yeah, unfortunately that really doesn’t hold much water. And Judge Walker’s decision won’t stand the test of time. Ultimately we’ve seen every place where same-sex marriages were legalized nationally, that the unwed, out-of-wedlock births goes up dramatically, the date or time-frame of marriage goes back significantly, and there is that lack of fathers and mothers in the families. What that means, if you look at black America and all the dysfunction, the poverty, the problems, the crime, all the violence, if that’s how you want all of America to look, then let this go forwards.
Ankerberg: What do you want the Supreme Court to do?
Jackson: Well, I want them to give us the right to vote on this thing, and to say the decision stands. I think that’s only fair.
Ankerberg: You’re going to get hammered, right in Washington, DC, on another matter close to this as well. Tell me about that.
Jackson: Well, I smile because,… it’s not funny, but I smile because we’ve been fighting same-sex marriage law that was passed early in 2010, and signed in a church building. That particular law had no involvement of the people. Thirteen out of control councilmen and a council chairman decided we don’t want to hear from the people; you don’t get a chance to vote on it, or to have any input into it. And then they kind of said, “No, no, no.” And we’re about to take that to the Supreme Court of the land, probably sometime in early to mid 2011.
Ankerberg: And you’re saying to the Supreme Court, what?
Jackson: We’re saying the people have a constitutional right to vote. In the city charter of Washington, DC, there’s a right to a referendum, striking down an existing law, an initiative, making law from among the people, and a recall vote of anybody sitting in those chairs that we think is not doing the job. And when a city council can say, “We changed the law and you don’t have the right to speak on it,” it basically doesn’t give a balancing function to the public. One more point, I’d like to make, John, is that when the Constitution says, “We, the people,” for Christians that doesn’t mean there’s some imaginary line: we stay over here, they go over there; and anytime we put our head under or nose under the tent, we’re going to get rapped on the nose. That’s not how this should work from a spiritual point of view and from a Constitutional point of view.
Ankerberg: Yeah, it shouldn’t be, “I, the judge,” it is “We, the people.”
Jackson: It really should be. Think back to the days of the real Civil Rights Movement, Martin Luther King, Jr. He seemed to have the Constitution in one hand and the Bible in another. And when people wouldn’t hear biblical truth, he used the absolute authority, in his mind, of the Constitution.
Ankerberg: Harry, every time I’ve seen you on TV and you’ve got a proponent of same-sex marriage opposed to you, they always bring this up to try to reassure the audience, “Listen, if you pass same-sex marriage, it’s going to not affect traditional marriage, it’s not going to affect what you say in church, it’s not going to affect your religious liberties outside of church, it’s not going to affect your personal freedom of speech outside of church.” You’re saying it’ll affect all of those areas and already is, before it’s even passed. Talk about that.
Jackson: Well, John, the reason that it will is that they are going to control the subject matter in the schools. Think about it this way. In the years ahead, if same-sex marriage is the law of the land, your kids will be taught that there once was a movement that tried to stop this, but because the people were bigots, it has now been allowed. They will be taught that there are many different kinds of relationships. They’ll be taught that
Heather Has Two Mommies. Those kinds of books are okay, and in Massachusetts when a dad says, “I object,” you know what they did? They arrested him, took him out of the building, and he gets no call on can he skip the class or not.
A couple of things are happening in California that we need to look at. First, if you are a child in a California school, you can determine what sex or sexual identity you want to have, without the permission of your parents. Go figure. Then you have other teachers who say, “We’re going to have gay allies in our kindergarten class. Isn’t that wonderful, kids. How many want to be a gay ally?” And on things like Coming Out Day, they give these opportunities to the kids and tell them they need to be champions for the gay lifestyle. Now, I know it sounds like I’m making this up to your listeners, but if they’ll begin to Google in, on their computers, some of the references I’m making, even Helena, Montana, you begin to say education is under fire. Because if you redefine marriage you redefine the family; redefine the family you redefine what parenting consists of; who can have kids, how kids are to handled. And then it must impact education. That’s where, three generations from now, I want my kids to know truth.
Ankerberg: Alright. Give a word of hope here. We’re going to go into these issues even deeper, and especially in terms or race and civil rights here, alright, because we keep coming back to that. We’re going to really define it in our next program. But for the folks that are listening, there are a lot of Christians that think this tidal wave is just going over their head, there’s nothing they can do about it. Harry, what’s the word of hope that you have?
Jackson: Well, John, first I want to say I believe we’re on the verge of a Great Awaking, a real harvest of souls. We’ll come back to that much later. But also this is not inevitable, meaning gay marriage. They keep telling us, “Give up, give up, give up.” And it reminds me, John, when I was growing up in the ghetto area of Cincinnati, Ohio, of a local bully who used to come up to me. Every time he’d see me, he’d stand in front of me; he’d push me, put his hand out and want my lunch money. One day I stopped and punched him in the chest. On that day, suddenly, all the taunting stopped. All we need is voters to rise up. And we’re not talking about any physical retaliation. If we’ll vote our consciences, I believe we can make a difference. And we’ll stop being bullied by a minority who wants to enforce its will on us.
Ankerberg: Folks, this is going to be great stuff. Next week we’re going to talk about Judge Vaughn Walker’s statements about the Civil Rights Movement that are in his decision to turn down Proposition 8. We’re also going to talk about what the mayor of San Francisco said when he referred to Rosa Parks in the Civil Rights Movement and compared it to the fight that’s going on with same-sex marriage advocates right now. And I want Harry to unscramble this for all of us. You won’t want to miss it. I believe this information is absolutely crucial for you to hear, so please join us next week.