With John Ankerberg, Dr. Norman Geisler, author of If God, Why Evil?, and Rabbi Harold Kushner, author of When Bad Things Happen to Good People.
(continued from Part 1)
Dr. John Ankerberg: Why do you think that’s a necessary view that we have to have an afterlife? What’s the purpose of it?
Dr. Norman Geisler: Well, I think it’s a matter of: Is there, or is there not? It’s a matter of whether it’s true or false. It’s not, as Freud would say, simply because I wish it to be so, because that would simply be an illusion. But the evidence that I see for an afterlife comes from the Scriptures themselves, which say that there will be an afterlife. Both Old and New Testament Scriptures predict the Day of Judgment.
Rabbi Harold Kushner: A little shaky in the Old.
Dr. Norman Geisler: Well, I don’t think it’s shaky. I think Daniel 12 is very clear; Ezekiel 37:28 is quite clear; I think Job said, “I know that my redeemer liveth and he shall stand in the latter day upon the earth” [Job 19:25]. I think that’s quite clear. I think Abraham said, or rather it is said of Him, “I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob” [Exodus 3:15]. And Jesus used that in the New Testament to silence the Sadducees, who didn’t believe in the resurrection [Matthew 22:32]. So I think there’s a lot of evidence, even in the Old Testament, that there is a resurrection.
Dr. John Ankerberg: What I am pushing you toward, Norman, is this the best of all possible worlds that we are living in then?
Dr. Norman Geisler: I wouldn’t say so. I would have to agree with Candide, which is the satire that Voltaire wrote on, “life in the best of all possible worlds.” This is not the best of all possible worlds, but I think it’s the best of all possible ways to get to the best of all possible worlds.
Dr. John Ankerberg: Why do you say that?
Dr. Norman Geisler: Well, because a true believer is something like tea. Their real strength comes out when they get in hot water. And I think God permits this to happen to us to produce the greatest virtues in us. As He said in the case of Job, as Job himself admitted, and everyone, including Rabbi Kushner, has admitted, that there is this kind of sanctifying influence of suffering that perfects us. Paul in Romans 5:3 said, “Tribulation works patience.” There just isn’t any way to get to the Promised Land without going through the wilderness.
Rabbi Harold Kushner: But, Norman, hold it! My pastoral experience, and I suspect your pastoral experience, has been that not everybody is sanctified or strengthened by tribulation. Haven’t you seen a lot of people become bitter? Haven’t you seen marriages break up, people have breakdowns, because of the tragedies that darken their lives? Has God miscalculated or was that also part of His plan?
Dr. Norman Geisler: I think it was part of His plan to allow us the freedom to make it a stumbling stone or a stepping-stone. To either get better or bitter. But if His purposes were good in it—and from God’s standpoint, “it’s better to have loved and to have lost than not to have loved at all”—and simply because His purposes weren’t fulfilled, because we frustrated them by rejecting what He really desired, doesn’t mean that His purposes weren’t all good.
Rabbi Harold Kushner: Oh, wait a minute! Are you saying that the person who has a mental breakdown because her daughter is raped then murdered is a sinner by not following God’s purposes? Isn’t that really double condemnation? This poor woman not only has to suffer pain and bereavement, she has to suffer your theological condemnation as well?
Dr. Norman Geisler: I am not saying that at all, no, because that would certainly be unfair. I am saying that she lives in a world that is fallen. A world in which Adam sinned and brought this kind of sickness and death on us and we all suffer the consequences of that kind of action, and we live in this space-time universe. But God, in spite of it, has taken this suffering upon Himself and has done something about it in the incarnation, and death, and resurrection of Christ. And that gives me hope that there is something beyond the grave that I can look forward to.
Rabbi Harold Kushner: What do you say to the person who has become bitter and jealous because her child has died? I am sure, because I know the kind of person you are, that you don’t say, “Lady, you are doing it wrong.” I am sure you have something more compassionate. What do you say to her?
Dr. Norman Geisler: I say, first of all, “I love you, I feel for you. God loves you, God feels for you. And God has done something about it. And He can make you a better person through this. Or you can become bitter if you reject His good purposes in it. Your choice is going to determine which of those two will be fulfilled in your life.”
Rabbi Harold Kushner: And if the woman says, “I don’t understand why a loving God would put me in this situation in the first place?”
Dr. Norman Geisler: Then what I would say is, “Join the club!” We are all finite. Nobody can understand the infinite purposes of God completely. The prophet Isaiah said, “His ways are unsearchable. His judgments are past finding out” [Isaiah 40:28; cf. Romans 11:33] In Deuteronomy, Moses said, “The secret things belong unto the Lord our God, but unto us and our children the things that are revealed” [Deuteronomy 29:29].
Rabbi Harold Kushner: Right!
(to be continued)