Ankerberg: Welcome to our program. My guests tonight are Roger Montgomery and Dr. John Weldon. And guys, I'm glad that you're here tonight. We're talking about homosexuality and AIDS. And not a popular topic to talk about, very controversial but one that needs to be talked about especially in terms of the church and our response as Christians to the AIDS epidemic as well as to those that are homosexuals in our community. Is there any hope that the church is offering? Will we get involved? Should we get involved? And tonight so that you'll at least know what the facts are I want to go through with Roger who came out of a homosexual orientation over a thousand different homosexual encounters, was a prostitute in the homosexual community eventually, and almost committed suicide. Christ brought him out of that and he knows this whole subject. He also happens to be here tonight dying of AIDS. Last week he almost didn't make it. And so he's in the final process of going through what AIDS brings into a person's body and it's not pleasant. But we want you to meet Roger. We want you to hear about how Christ has changed his life. Roger, you know, I think what Paul said "Though the outward man is perishing that the inward man will be renewed." And goodness sake you've lost how many pounds since you've gotten the HIV virus?
Montgomery: Probably 30 to 35 pounds.
Ankerberg: Okay and even since the debate where we had you with Dr. Walter Martin and Bishop Spong you've lost weight as well.
Montgomery: Right. I get skinnier every day.
Ankerberg: Yeah. And you contracted the HIV virus along the way. You think it's been how many years now that you've had it.
Montgomery: Well, I've known for sure that I've had it for four and a half years. But I've probably had the virus for as many as six to eight years. It's probably how long I've had it.
Ankerberg: Okay.
Montgomery: Which is a typical experience. Most people have the virus or can have it and be spreading it for as long as ten years.
Ankerberg: Now a lot of people are scared of you as a homosexual and of contracting AIDS, okay? But on the other hand they don't recognize that by their just shaking hands with you they could kill you. Why?
Montgomery: Right. Well, because most the viruses that the average person has are passed out of their body and it doesn't affect their body at all. But those common small viruses to them are very big to me and if one of those viruses are spread to me it could kill me.
Ankerberg: Yeah. But you still want people to shake your hand and touch you, don't you?
Montgomery: Right. What is life if you can't live it without touching other people? I mean I wouldn't want to live in that kind of world.
Ankerberg: Okay. And Rog, let's go back and let's talk about the facts of AIDS and what you've contracted here. When was the first case of AIDS introduced into the United States as far as we know?
Montgomery: I think it was back in the early 80's -- 1981, as far as I know.
Ankerberg: And the only people that were diagnosed with AIDS at first were who?
Montgomery: Homosexuals. It was called "Gay Bowel Syndrome" because only homosexuals were contracting the disease. It wasn't a big panic at the time but people were contracting it and dying. And scientists didn't know what it was.
Ankerberg: Okay. AIDS is what?
Montgomery: Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome. A person contracts AIDS and becomes infected with AIDS after they have touched the Human Immuno-deficiency Virus which is the HIV virus that enters into their bloodstream and...
Ankerberg: Attacks the white blood cells now, right?
Montgomery: Right. It attacks their white blood cells and immediately begins to multiply and attacks the body's immune system. The body produces an antibody but it's completely ineffective against the AIDS virus. No one knows why.
Ankerberg: It doesn't work. So, what does the HIV virus mean then?
Montgomery: HIV is just another name for AIDS. What it's being called today...
Ankerberg: Okay. So it's the same thing.
Montgomery: ...Human Immuno-deficiency Virus. It's just a way scientists label everything and that's one thing they call AIDS.
Ankerberg: Okay now once this virus is introduced into the human body, how long do you keep it?
Montgomery: You can keep it for as long as ten years. But you immediately after contracting the virus, you are capable of spreading it to other people through sexual contact.
Ankerberg: Immediately?
Montgomery: Immediately.
Ankerberg: Even if you don't test positive?
Montgomery: Even if you don't test positive immediately, you can still spread the virus. The virus is not latent in that concern.
Ankerberg: Can you have no symptoms and still spread it?
Montgomery: Right. That's basically what happens most of the time is why AIDS is spreading the way it is because there are no symptoms. I was basically extremely healthy until January then all of a sudden the virus hit. That's why people don't know they are contacting someone who has the virus because they appear to be healthy.
Ankerberg: Once this virus is introduced into anybody's body they'll have it for life. Right?
Montgomery: Right.
Ankerberg: They don't get rid of it.
Montgomery: You cannot pass the virus.
Ankerberg: All right. What happens when you start to show symptoms? How long usually does it take once you're introduced to the virus before you start showing the symptoms?
Montgomery: Usually five years is usually pretty well common. People, once they have contracted the virus, after five years they almost always start coming down with the virus.
Ankerberg: Okay. But usually it will be before ten years.
Montgomery: Right.
Ankerberg: But everybody that gets it, then what happens?
Montgomery: Well, scientists currently disagree with this, but everyone that contracts it now dies.
Ankerberg: Okay. So let me make sure I'm clear about what you're saying. You're saying the scientists some of them are giving false hope that even though you contract the virus that you will you're not going to die.
Montgomery: That you're not necessarily going to get AIDS and die, but...
Ankerberg: That's not true.
Montgomery: No, that's constantly being shown not to be true because the virus has such a long incubation period for as many as ten years some scientists are trying to offer some hope this way. But it's just not a reality.
Ankerberg: Okay. Now you are feeling in yourself some effects right now and there are two things that you've told me that eighty percent of the people that contact the virus die of and number one is what? What's number two.
Montgomery: KS is the first Kaposi's Sarcoma. It's a type of cancer that invades the body. And the most frequent is PCP which is what I have Pneumasystic Carnia Pneumonia. It's a pneumonia that affects the lungs and finally just blows the lungs out and you can't breath so you die.
Ankerberg: All right you also talk about ARC. What is ARC.
Montgomery: ARC is called AIDS Related Complex. It's a less severe form of AIDS but usually people who have ARC do go on to develop full blown AIDS...
Ankerberg: Okay.
Montgomery: ...and die.
Ankerberg: So in other words there are opportunistic infections that come along and attack you just because your system is down.
Montgomery: Because my immune systems isn't working properly. The average virus that would not hurt or affect even the average person could kill me or someone that has ARC.
Ankerberg: All right. Also you say AIDS attacks the brain. Tell me why.
Montgomery: At first they thought you can't die of AIDS itself you have to die of an AIDS related condition. But it's not true now because the AIDS virus actually causes insanity and it causes brain lesions which is what I have also.
Ankerberg: You've got the brain lesions...
Montgomery: Right.
Ankerberg: ...and you've got the pain and... In fact in the homosexual community because so many people have died, what are the actual statistics, Dr. Weldon? How many people right now have died? How many have full blown AIDS symptoms and how many just have the virus now?
Weldon: Right now, John, slightly over 100,000 people are diagnosed as having AIDS and 60,000, over 60,000, have died. That's actually more than we lost in the Vietnam War.
Ankerberg: How many people actually are carrying the virus around?
Weldon: No one is absolutely certain of that. It's estimated 2 million to 5 million. A person is not diagnosed as having AIDS until he actually reaches the end stages of the disease. But technically all these other people have AIDS. They're just not diagnosed. And so that means if this 2 to 5 million figure is correct then 2 to 5 million people have AIDS in this country.
Ankerberg: Okay. What are the scientists saying about the future? Are they talking five years, ten years, what are the figures for the future?
Weldon: No one really knows and that's the frightening thing. I've heard figures in Africa that are just plain scary and because it has such an extremely long incubation period because most people are scared to become tested because of the prejudiced in society and other things, the disease can be spreading as rapidly as who knows what and so no one really knows how bad it's going to get. The point is it's bad enough already.
Ankerberg: All right, Roger, how can a person contract AIDS? You've got four different ways. What are they?
Montgomery: Well, the first one and the main way AIDS is spread is through sexual contact with another person.
Ankerberg: Seventy to seventy-five percent of all the people who have AIDS?
Montgomery: Right. AIDS is basically a sexually transmitted disease. You don't have to worry about getting AIDS at this point if you're not out being promiscuous or involved in that type of lifestyle. The second way is, which has decreased dramatically now, is through is hemophiliacs and those who receive blood transfusions because the blood supply has become very safe. It is not completely safe at this time, but it is very safe. And then there is mothers and children. If a mother has AIDS, she can pass it on to her child.
Ankerberg: Okay. And at birth it can come through the womb or what?
Montgomery: Right. At birth it can come through the womb through the mother's body fluids or it has been known to be spread by breast feeding from mother to infant.
Ankerberg: Also there are people that [are] sharing and using needles and syringes that are contaminated.
Montgomery: Right.
Ankerberg: The drug aspect of this.
Montgomery: Right. But a large majority of that portion which most scientists will not tell you are homosexuals that are both homosexual and IV drug users. So they classify them as drug users instead of homosexual.
Weldon: I think it's also important, John, to realize that AIDS is not a homosexual disease per se. It happens that in this country it is usually associated among the homosexual population. But in Africa it's primarily among the heterosexual population. And so what we're dealing here with is a disease that is associated with sexual immorality. It's a disease that is ultimately the result of violating God's standards regarding marriage and sex. God is the one who invented sex, who made us to enjoy sex but it's to be in a committed lifelong marriage relationship. And if you simply go back and examine what the sexual revolution has cost us as a culture it has affected literally tens of millions of people. AIDS is not the only thing that the sexual revolution has brought. Women have a higher incidence of infertility today. There's over 25 to 30 different sexually transmitted diseases. Higher incidences of rape, of child molesting, of pornography, most abortions are abortions of convenience, prostitution and a number of other things are all the result of this so-called sexual revolution. And I think it's time that people stood up and said, "No! There's something better for us."
Ankerberg: Roger, when you develop AIDS and you come into the last days and you're dying, in the homosexual community you were telling me about a group of people that out of so-called compassion they will come and what will they do?
Montgomery: Right. There are a group of people you can call them whether you're a family member or an AIDS victim and they will come and terminate you or kill you. Whether by nonviolent or violent means. There have been cases where plastic bags were placed over the head while the survivor or the person that's fatal tried to fight off the attack but was unsuccessful.
Ankerberg: Okay. Do you call these people or do they come on their own?
Montgomery: Right. Right. You call them. They live in California most of them do. And you can just call them and they will come out and terminate you if you have an illness. Or you could be a family member, a mother or a brother that's suffering with the person dying of Aids.
Ankerberg: They usually what, use poison or whatever?
Montgomery: Most of the time they think that they’re like a priest. They’ll wash the body and they’ll have a pill of some sort there. But if that pill doesn’t work they will resort to violent means. And none of them are accosted by the police or prosecuted at all.
Ankerberg: Is that because the society says these guys are such hopeless, desperate cases that, go ahead and its really merciful?
Montgomery: Right. Basically society has given up on AIDS victims even though we try to stop the disease or whatever we try to do. When it comes right down to it we throw up our hands and say there's no hope for you. And that's what Christ offers to the AIDS patient is hope.
Ankerberg: It sounded like that one illustration where if you changed your mind and the poison didn't work they'd put the plastic bag on you, what if you change your mind?
Montgomery: Well, that's tough. There was a man who was involved in this activity and his lover was in better physical shape than I am and he killed him with a plastic bag because he thought he deserved to die. He "deserved the peace" even though he didn't want to die.
Ankerberg: Does that open up the door, Dr. Weldon, in this thing of euthanasia?
Weldon: It concerns me a lot when, simply because of the fact that someone is suffering, we decide to terminate their life. There's also a movement for legalized suicide in other areas as well and I have the greatest sympathy for somebody who is dying a very painful death but it does not make that a moral right to take that person's life.
Ankerberg: Roger, let me ask you a tough question. Why are the majority of people in the United States with AIDS homosexual men? Why do they contract it more than other people?
Montgomery: Well, for several reasons. The first one is their promiscuity. There are multiple, multiple contacts in the homosexual community and that way they're spreading it more rapidly than the heterosexual community. Secondly, is the physical involvement with two homosexual people [which] makes the body open to receiving the virus very quickly whereas in the heterosexual relationship the virus is not introduced that quickly, even though it is possible. Simple, one contact is enough. But the homosexual community, the type of behavior they practice, makes them very vulnerable.
Ankerberg: Okay. And then the repeated exposure, of course that... How many sexual contacts does a homosexual have usually in a week?
Montgomery: Right. Probably fifty a week if he's really promiscuous. And there's some that go out usually two to three times a week at least for sexual contact. So it's a very frequent number.
Ankerberg: And you have quite a few partners over a year.
Montgomery: Right.
Ankerberg: Rog, how is it that you cannot get AIDS? We've talked about how you can get it. How are you sure you can't get it?
Montgomery: Right now you cannot get AIDS through casual contact which means shaking of a person's hand that has AIDS. Or even eating after them you can't contract AIDS. People say, "Well, how do you know because the virus is found in mosquitos, in the saliva." We just know that it's not happening at this time. People are not. Even family members that live with AIDS patients and do not practice good hygiene are not contracting the virus at all.
Ankerberg: Studies show that 2,500 health workers -- health care workers -- out of 750 who worked carefully with blood, needles, stool, only 3 of those health care workers tested HIV positive and that was because they had stuck themself with a contaminated needle.
Montgomery: Right.
Ankerberg: But basically people use ten percent bleach, 90 percent water to take care of cleaning up the body fluids, which is one way you might contract it.
Montgomery: Even people in the most vulnerable positions that care for AIDS patients are not contracting the virus at this time. Health care workers is our main example because they are not and if they are they know how they contracted it. They accidentally stuck or poked themself with a needle.
Ankerberg: Four million people, Roger, by 1991 some people have estimated will have the virus actually. And 270,000 will have full blown AIDS cases. What's this going to cost the American taxpayer.
Montgomery: Well, [former Surgeon General C. Everett Koop says its going to cost us anywhere from 8 to 16 billion dollars.
Ankerberg: Billion dollars.
Montgomery: That's an unimaginable number that's going to have to be absorbed by the nation's health care system. Somebody's going to have to take care of these people. And it's going to come out of the taxpayer's pocket. It's what it's planned to do right now.
Ankerberg: So that's why everybody ought to have a voice in this whole thing.
Montgomery: Right. Everybody should have a voice. And everyone should be concerned. This disease will touch them, no matter what they think, no matter how safe they may seem now. This disease will involve them.
Ankerberg: Now you say there's only one treatment -- effective treatment -- but it's not a cure. What is that for the AIDS person?
Montgomery: Well, right there is the AZT which is about $10,000 a year. There is a drug coming up called DDI that's being released on a compassionate basis from the FDA. But it is not a cure. All it does is strengthen the person's body and they live a little bit longer, hopefully.
Ankerberg: But if you're not able to pay that $10,000 for that medication each year for AZT, who pays for it?
Montgomery: The government does. They will pick up the tab. Any medication you cannot afford, hospitalization, etc., the government will pick up the tab. There is many, many free services available to the AIDS patient.
Ankerberg: Okay, Rog, how is the non-Christian the secular community responding and reacting to the AIDS crisis and homosexuality and then how is the church responding to this crisis?
Montgomery: Well the non-Christian community is responding by telling everyone to practice safe sex which is just not true. In this AIDS convention 100 percent of the doctors that were asked, they were asked would you have sex with someone who has AIDS using all the safe sex practices, 100 percent of them said no.
Ankerberg: 100 percent said they would not.
Montgomery: They would not because AIDS can be spread even by use of condoms because condoms are very unreliable and plus contact with other body fluids. Most people do not use condoms properly.
Ankerberg: Okay. And they're also advocating then you should have safe
sex but don't modify your behavior.
Montgomery: Right.
Ankerberg: In other words, we're going to keep on teaching about homosexuality in the schools. We're going to continue practicing it. Just try to be safe about it.
Montgomery: Right. I can't understand why they say that because there's only one way to stop the disease and its spread currently and that's by modification of behavior. But that's the last thing our society wants to see done.
Ankerberg: And in the homosexual community because the desires are so strong it's not going to stop even if you're going to die.
Montgomery: Right.
Ankerberg: You've said something to me that, you know, is just hard to understand and that is that those that are homosexual have expectations that you will come down with AIDS.
Montgomery: Right. The majority of the consensus in the homosexual community is if you're involved in the homosexual lifestyle you are expected to contract AIDS and to die of AIDS.
Ankerberg: All right. What's the reaction of the Christian church to the AIDS epidemic and homosexuals in general?
Montgomery: Not very well. For the homosexual the church has rejected the homosexual for many, many years and that's one reason the homosexual is behaving the way he is today. And for AIDS, the majority of Christians are afraid that they are going to contract AIDS and they reject the person with AIDS.
Ankerberg: How should a church minister in their community? How should they start?
Montgomery: Well the first thing the church needs to do is to contact the hospital because privacy with the AIDS patient is very important. They're not just going to come to the hospital or wherever and say hello I have AIDS would you help me? So what you're going to have to do is contact a hospital worker or social worker or the chaplain at the hospital and make your services available. Those services will be used because the AIDS patient has many, many needs and if he knows there's someone out there that's willing to go and get him a magazine or to take him on a trip or to take him to church or wherever, he's going to make himself available. And that's what the church needs to do.
Ankerberg: What else would you say?
Montgomery: Noncondemning attitude is very important when you go to the hospital because these people suffer a lot of guilt already from society and from family and you need to be the one that says Christ accepts you and loves you.
Weldon: I think it is the absolute responsibility of the Christian to love somebody that is homosexual, but for the grace of God I personally can't say that I would not have been homosexual if I'd had the kinds of experiences many of these people have had. Jesus Christ himself spent time with the lepers. He did not preserve His own life. He said that those who love Him would give their lives for others and many of these people are dying without Christ and the church needs to love these individuals. They are created in God's image. Jesus Christ died for them and we have a responsibility to them to care for them and to love them as Christ loved us.