Ankerberg: Welcome to our program. We're talking with Roger Montgomery and Dr. John Weldon about the very controversial topic of homosexuality. What we want to talk about and examine tonight is what does the church, what does the gospel of Jesus Christ offer in terms of hope and recovery to a person who has a homosexual orientation. And, Roger, a lot of people are going to want to know what kind of credentials you have in terms to speak to this topic. So we need to go back. You came out of a homosexual orientation. You basically, at six years of age you were brought into it by a next door neighbor. Tell us about it.
Montgomery: Right. I was sexually molested at a very early age and I began to view myself and identify myself as homosexual and eventually I ended up in the homosexual lifestyle living that life as a homosexual until I found Christ and found the answer.
Ankerberg: Now you didn't have a choice one way or the other. In other words you didn't say, "Well, I'm going to either choose heterosexuality or homosexuality."
Montgomery: No. I don't believe that homosexuality is a conscious choice. I did not choose between homosexuality and heterosexuality. I was led into homosexuality by a neighbor and I do not believe that it was a conscious choice I made.
Ankerberg: But, that kind of set your path...
Montgomery: Right.
Ankerberg: ...in terms of learned behavior and you came to enjoy it and like it...
Montgomery: Right.
Ankerberg: ...and then believe that you had been...
Montgomery: That that's who I was.
Ankerberg: ...born that way. That's who you were.
Montgomery: Right.
Ankerberg: Now you were in essence recruited into homosexuality. How many others are also molested or brought into homosexuality by an older adult as a child?
Montgomery: I've talked to thousands of homosexuals because they love to talk about that experience and the majority of them, if not all of them, would personally tell me that, yes, they were sexually molested as a child is the reason why they are currently living the homosexual lifestyle. We can't say "everyone" because it's just not true. But almost everyone I talked to and I talked to thousands of them say that, yes, they were sexually molested as a child and recruited that way.
Ankerberg: Would you say about 70, 80 percent of all homosexuals that you met were brought in that way?
Montgomery: Of the ones I met, I would say closer to 90, 95 percent. But as I talk to others, I think the figure probably will be a little bit lower. But the ones that I met 90, 95 percent said they were recruited by older homosexuals.
Ankerberg: Why do older homosexuals recruit younger men such as yourself when you started out?
Montgomery: Well, in the homosexual lifestyle youth is everything. The younger you can get a person, the more sexual prowess you have or the better your needs or your desires are fulfilled. I mean youth is a god in the homosexual lifestyle.
Ankerberg: But even down to six and seven years of age as young as you were?
Montgomery: Right. Most people who recruit -- homosexuals who recruit people that young aren't fully. . .they wouldn't go out and say, "Hey I'm in this for recruiting purposes." They're just doing it for a sexual thrill. But that is very common, yes.
Ankerberg: Does it ever cross their mind, though? Did you recruit young ones?
Montgomery: I recruited younger people, but it didn't matter to me. All that mattered to me was my sexual thrill. And it didn't matter to me how it would affect anyone else's life. And knowing other homosexuals I believe the same thing is true for them. They don't care how it affects that young person's life at all.
Ankerberg: So you didn't start off the day by saying, "I'm going to recruit four young kids...
Montgomery: No.
Ankerberg: ...six, seven years of age today." It's just because of the strong desires that you have...
Montgomery: Right.
Ankerberg: ...and this is desirable to you.
Montgomery: It's like an addiction. That's why most homosexuals disagree or they would violently say, "We're not recruiters" because they don't intend to. But that doesn't negate their responsibility at all because they didn't intend to. They are still molesting our children.
Ankerberg: And almost 95 percent of the people that you've met -and you've met thousands and thousands of homosexuals...
Montgomery: Would confess to me that they were sexually molested or recruited as a child.
Ankerberg: What does that say then in our society about the homosexuals trying to pass laws to have the right to teach the children in the schools or camps or at Sunday schools without any infringement on that?
Montgomery: They are recruiters. And they're after your children. They're after my children. And if they are allowed to continue they will achieve their goal.
Ankerberg: All right. I want to come back to that. Why is a person, Rog, a homosexual? Is it orientation, or does he choose, or you've thought about this a lot. Start with your own personal experience and then come on back to society -- what society is saying. But why are people homosexuals? What's the latest?
Montgomery: I always wondered why I was homosexual. That's one of the biggest questions in the homosexual's mind -- "Why are they homosexual?" Because they have experience homosexual feelings from a very early age is why they say, "We were born homosexual." But there is no fact at all in that statement that they were born that way. But most people do become homosexual through recruiting.
Ankerberg: You actually feel that you've been born that way because you feel that way on the inside. Speak to that.
Montgomery: As early as most homosexuals can remember not all, but most will say, "I have been homosexual since I can remember. My first sexual orientation was toward the same sex. It was not toward the opposite sex." So they begin to perceive themselves as having being born gay and thus absolving them of any responsibility for change.
Ankerberg: Some of the things you used to say yourself as a homosexual to other people concerning why you were a homosexual there's a couple of reasons that are kind of in vogue right now.
One is that the genetic make-up, the chromosomes, the genes, there's something in it that brought it about. It was fixed. Or, from neuro-physiology there's a hormonal imbalance that takes place in the womb and affects the brain and so sex is preset in the womb because of this hormonal imbalance. And what do you say to those kinds of rational ideas about why people are homosexual?
Montgomery: Well, the sad part is you ask the average homosexual in the street why he's gay and he'll say because it's a genetic make-up. But anybody that's in the know especially the leaders of the homosexual community will deny genetic make-up as a reason for homosexuality because of our ability to transform and to manipulate genes today. And we know that that's not the fact. But that's how I believed and perceived myself and that's how the average homosexual on the street perceives himself -- that it is genetic. But it's not. It can't be proven.
Ankerberg: Yeah. You can actually do some genetic changing in the laboratory now and you could come out with a complete heterosexual crowd if that was true.
Montgomery: Right. And it's been tried. There are some doctors who who wanted to build a perfect race -- all heterosexual -- and that has been tried and that's where neuro-physiology came from. They tried to convince the general public that the homosexual was pre-sexed and it happened before he was born. But if his genetic make-up or his neuro- physiological make-up could be changed before birth, he could be transformed into heterosexual.
Ankerberg: Yeah. What would that also mean concerning after birth, post-birth experiences such as you experienced if people are molested, if you are pre-sexed in terms of the hormonal imbalance toward a heterosexual world view that wouldn't affect you then, would it?
Montgomery: Right. Post-birth experiences... if it's true that you are born gay, has nothing to do with making a person gay or straight but that's simply not true. Post-birth experiences such as sexual molestation are very important and determine a person's sexuality. and it is a lie and, you know, a misnomer to say that post-birth experiences do not affect us because they do.
Ankerberg: Scientists are saying that most people's sexual identity is set by what age?
Montgomery: Very early. Usually by three. Not that it's unchangeable but that it is very strongly...
Ankerberg: It is oriented...
Montgomery: ....ingrained...
Ankerberg: ...in one direction or another.
Montgomery: ...usually by three years old.
Ankerberg: Dr. Weldon, let me ask you this question. You have done a lot of research in writing your books and concerning the scientific evidence that is coming out today, what are the scientists saying causes a person to come into homosexuality? Is it the genetic theory that they are proposing? Are they really supporting this thing of neuro-physiology that it takes place in the womb and affects the brain? Is that what's in vogue now or what are they actually saying and give us some people like Kinsey and Masters and Johnson what are they finding out today?
Weldon: Well, first of all, John, the constitutional theory of homosexuality is, it's accepted not only in society but also the church far more than is warranted by the evidence. For example, Masters and Johnson state in their book, Human Sexuality, 1984, p. 319, "The genetic theory of homosexuality has been generally discarded today." And Alfred Kinsey states in Pomeroy's text
Dr. Kinsey and the Institute for Sex Research, "I myself have come to the conclusion homosexuality is largely a matter of conditioning." Homosexuality is not caused by hormones, a leading researcher in this area, W. H. Pearloff says. "It (that is homosexuality) is a purely psychological phenomenon and Dr. Gerhard Van Den Aardweg who has a Ph.D. in psychology from the University of Amsterdam and specializes in counseling and treating homosexuals states that, "The history of the theory of an inborn homosexual nature that is inheritance is a long one. This theory has slowly crumbled and now practically nothing is left of it." In his book
Changing Homosexuality in the Male the psychiatrist L. J. Hatterer put it bluntly, "Psychiatrists arrived at last at the conclusion that the genetic, hereditary, constitutional, glandular or hormonal factors have no importance for the causation of homosexuality." Now Masters and Johnson themselves state that, "It is of vital importance," and I'm quoting, "that all professionals in the mental health field keep in mind that the homosexual man or woman is basically a man or woman by genetic determination and homosexually oriented by learned preference." And what is important about this is that the very time that science is setting on the side that it is a learned behavior that most people who are dealing in counseling and other areas with homosexuality are accepting the idea that it's inbred, it's inborn, they're born that way, that nothing can be done about it, that they really can't change. And so society basically must accept this. They are dooming homosexuals to a lifestyle and to a particular condition and saying "We can't do anything for you," and that is what is sad.
Ankerberg: So Rog, if a person comes up to one of our listeners on the street and says, "I'm gay and the reason I'm gay is because I was born that way or there's a hormonal imbalance or something other in the genetic, chromosomal make-up," what should people know about that? What should they say?
Montgomery: Well, first thing they have to realize is that person is speaking completely out of ignorance. The second reason they have to realize is that that person's speaking because he's been held in bondage or remained to keep secret all his life and he's finally being able to express who he really is as a person and that's why he's being so outward and so persuasive about it. But what the average person needs to know is what is homosexuality. Not necessarily what causes it, but what it is, what it's like to be homosexual. And it's one of the worst orientations in the world to be homosexual.
Ankerberg: Rog, there's some homosexuals that are saying because you are here talking tonight and you are saying there's hope and you can change your orientation, therefore, you're not a true homosexual. What would you... How would you answer that?
Montgomery: Well, I've... I never had any sexual orientation or desire for women until I was 26 years old and I had over a thousand sexual partners with men and enjoyed it. I was homosexual. I was not heterosexual at all.
Ankerberg: And it's only the miraculousness of Christ...
Montgomery: Right. It is only Christ that changed me.
Ankerberg: ...which you are talking about in these programs that changed you. There is nothing else that would have changed you.
Montgomery: Right. A person cannot change his own sexuality. That's the big debate today and that's the big furor among the gay community. They say we cannot change. Why do you want us to change? And that's true, they cannot, but Christ can change them and He demands change.
Ankerberg: Roger, there are some myths going about concerning the homosexual lifestyle. Number one is when you watch television programs that have gone off the air like "Hotel" or "Dynasty" or some of the others, "Love Boat" when it was on, you'd always the two sharpest looking men, young looking living together, good jobs and so on, and they would talk about this loving, homosexual monogamous marriage among homosexuals. Okay? That's one of the myths, you say. Why don't we go down this thing? What are some of the myths of the homosexual lifestyle being perpetrated by the gay community in America and being accepted almost right across the board?
Montgomery: The first one is that gay people are moral, upstanding people and that they are not the promiscuous animals that they are portrayed to be. But I knew homosexuals. I know them. And I myself was one of them. I was involved in their life. And I know they are promiscuous. The AIDS epidemic does not matter to them or anything else only that sexual contact because it's just like an addiction. They have to have that.
Ankerberg: How strong is that sexual desire?
Montgomery: It's overwhelming. It controls everything.
Ankerberg: How many sexual episodes did you have in a week?
Montgomery: In a week as a prostitute I would sometimes have as many as a hundred a week.
Ankerberg: Okay. But the fact is most guys aren't prostitutes that are homosexual. How many sexual partners do they have on average during a year.
Montgomery: During a year. Well the average homosexual probably goes out least two or three times a week and which is probably fifteen to fifty times a week they'll have different sexual partners.
Ankerberg: Okay so over a year would it be what?
Montgomery: Fifty to a hundred.
Ankerberg: Fifty to a hundred different partners?
Montgomery: Right.
Ankerberg: Okay.
Montgomery: Monogamy is... there's no such thing as monogamy in the gay community. You know they try to convince you it's true. I've never known a homosexual who was completely monogamous. I've known some who were partially faithful to their lovers, but none that was strictly faithful.
Ankerberg: Okay. So you say number one, the sexual desires are uncontrollable and a person is never satisfied. You always...
Montgomery: Right.
Ankerberg: ...have to go for your next hit and so on.
Montgomery: Right. It's exactly what it
is, an addiction. The homosexual is never sexually satisfied at all. He must always continue to pursue different contacts [that] is what's so consuming about it.
Ankerberg: You said you could never keep a job. Is that part of the reason?
Montgomery: Right. Right. Because I preferred to have sexual contact. I had to refrain myself and to control myself if I was in a working atmosphere, a professional atmosphere, but in the homosexual community I could be in the bar the minute it opened and stay until it closed and then I could go to the bathhouse if I had to.
Ankerberg: So that's why you turned to sexual prostitution.
Montgomery: Right.
Ankerberg: What's the second one you said, homosexual persons the majority of them, are heavily into alcohol, drugs tell us about that.
Montgomery: Well, when I was in the gay lifestyle you could buy heroin and especially cocaine across the bar as freely as you could beer. In most larger gay bars hard drugs flow, I mean, terribly easy. You go to the bathroom and there's a line there not to use the "john" but so they can get in and shoot heroin or snort some cocaine.
Ankerberg: Now we're talking about the majority. We're not talking about every single person that's a homosexual, but you're saying that the majority as far as your experiences over the years with thousands of different homosexuals, the gay bars, the bathhouses and so on that they were heavily into alcohol or drugs.
Montgomery: Well, they need that drug and they need that alcohol to "make them happy" because nothing does. The sexual contact does not fulfill them and they use drugs very heavily to numb that pain that they feel and it's a lie to say that homosexuals do not feel pain because they do. It's a very, very painful lifestyle.
Ankerberg: One of the other things you said that surprised me was number three is that homosexuals are by and large disloyal. Tell me what that means.
Montgomery: Well, to lovers especially, I mean it's a common joke that you are disloyal to your lover. I mean everybody knows that. And then to family members. Most homosexuals' cry is "Well, look what my family members done. He's deserted me." When actually the homosexual has flaunted his behavior and his lifestyle in their face and caused the average person to turn their back. So they're very disloyal to their family, to their friends and in a homosexual community once you're used you are discarded. Once they get what they want out of you, they are not loyal to you at all. They are not your friends.
Ankerberg: And the older you get as a homosexual, the less you're wanted...
Montgomery: Right. Right. The older...
Ankerberg: ...because you're less desirable.
Montgomery: ....The older homosexual lives the living nightmare because he is not wanted by anyone and he is discarded cruelly.
Ankerberg: And the young boys are looked upon as very desirable.
Montgomery: Right. Youth is everything in the homosexual community.
Ankerberg: Okay. You say homosexuals blame everyone else for their problems. What were you saying in that? What do you mean?
Montgomery: Well, the homosexual mainly blames God and the church for their condition. That we have treated them so badly and that God demands change and He doesn't give the power to change so they are blaming others for who they are and for their condition.
Ankerberg: You said during your story there was time in your own life when you came, you tried God, you tried religion, you tried the church. Most homosexuals have gone to church, been raised in good families and there's... but there's a point where almost everyone comes and says "I hate you, God." Why?
Montgomery: It's a very hateful type of orientation because everyone is mad at God because the church teaches that... or did teach that God does require change in order to be accepted. And most homosexuals have tried religion "I've tried to be reconciled to God but cannot be," and that's why they're very angry with Him. And because they've had to deny themselves and to live a secret life.
Ankerberg: What about the person that's listening though and says, "You know, but if I come to Christ I have to give up my homosexuality first and I can't do that."
Montgomery: Well, that's the common misunderstanding. When I came to Christ, Christ invited me to come as a homosexual as who I was. He was accepting me. That's one of the greatest things that the homosexual needs is acceptance and Christ does accept the homosexual. He does require change. A person has to be willing to allow Christ to change him. That was one of the big things that kept me in the lifestyle was I don't want to give all this up. But the more I realized that I really wasn't giving anything up at all to come to know Christ that Christ's life was so much better than the homosexual life.
Ankerberg: So then on one side Christ says, "Repent, turn away from your sin." At the same time, He has to give the power to do that repentance.
Montgomery: Right.
Ankerberg: And you come and you say, "Lord I'm willing, but at the same time I'm a hopeless case if you're expecting me to have the power to do this."
Montgomery: Right. Right. Repentance is a very big part of it, but it's not in our own strength that we repent. We have to be willing to let Christ take it from us and that's what I had to do let Christ take homosexuality out of me. Not me give up homosexuality or rip it out of myself...
Ankerberg: And that was one of the greatest things you learned was that Christ would take that out and would help you and He would give you the strength for even that which He told you.
Montgomery: The first step was I had to believe that He could and then I had to believe that He would. And once I put my faith in Him, it was all downhill from there.