What Should Be The Church’s Response to Those Who Have AIDS?
Ankerberg (General Introduction): Good evening. Tonight you're going to hear part of Roger Montgomery's last interview. Roger knew he was dying of AIDS when he left his hospital bed and came and taped this program. In fact, he died just a few days after. You're going to hear why he was adamant that Jesus Christ is the only answer for the homosexual. You'll also meet the woman that he fell in love with and who married him in spite of the knowledge that he had AIDS. You'll hear Roger and Renee's experiences with churches that rejected their children even though their children didn't have AIDS. As you listen tonight, I'd like to ask you what do you think the church's response should be to those who have AIDS. Please listen.
Ankerberg (On Set): I'm sitting here talking with Roger Montgomery and his lovely wife, Renee, and I've gotten to know Roger and Renee over the last months of time. If you remember during the Dr. Walter Martin and Bishop John Spong debate that we had in Dallas, about the fourth program I brought Roger onto the set and he told of his experiences coming out of the homosexual community. And, Rog, it's been a couple of months now and you at that time told us that you had AIDS and you've been suffering with the disease. You've lost more weight since we have seen you and last week you almost died. And even right now you're not feeling too good, but I appreciate you sharing this information with us. Rog, you know you're going to die. You've got a wonderful wife, you've got two kids. At this point, to those that are in our audience that are watching right now that might have AIDS what does Christ mean to you at this point? What does He do for you that makes it all worthwhile to know Christ?
Montgomery: Well, hope is the answer because I don't fear death at all. And it doesn't bother me that I have to leave my wife behind in that sense because I know that Christ will take care of everything and that He is not a fictional character. That He is very real.
Ankerberg: Renee, when Rog proposed, what's it been now a couple of years ago, four years ago?
Renee: Three.
Ankerberg: Three years ago. You thought at that time about this moment. And as you have lived with the Lord and lived with Roger what are your feelings right now? Is it worth it?
Renee: Oh, definitely. I would surely do this again if I had to take, you know, make that choice again. I would definitely do this again. When we married there was always that hope that God would heal him or strengthen him so he could live longer than this. Three years has gone by so quickly I can't believe we're coming to the end of it. And still even now I pray for God's healing. I believe He can. I'm not sure if it's His will, but that's what I cling to everyday.
Ankerberg: Where did you find the courage, Renee, when Rog told you, and he was upfront with you, he told you that he had AIDS and you were in love with him, you had to face the prospect that you could die, too. In fact, you thought that you would die with him. How did you get the courage to do that?
Renee: Well, I had said earlier that God had prepared me for this. This is, I believe, what God wanted for my life and for Roger's life and I wasn't frightened. And even now, well I can't say I'm not frightened now because I am frightened for my children's sake. Not only do I beg God for Roger's life, but for my own because of the children. But I had stated earlier that if Roger left I didn't want to stay here without him. And I still feel that way even though I am frightened.
Ankerberg: And after a couple of years of marriage and two children neither you nor the kids have picked up the HIV virus.
Renee: No, we haven't.
Ankerberg: And the doctors are kind of bewildered at that, Rog. What do they say when you walk in there and you've got the whole crowd with you?
Montgomery: They think we're crazy first of all for even attempting such a feat. But basically what they do they all listen to us and we have an ear. I mean they give us an ear because they have to. Because we are some of the people that are not coming down with AIDS, and my wife and my children are not, and they have to take that into consideration.
Ankerberg: Rog, how do you sort this out in your own mind? The Lord has brought you out of homosexuality and tell us how He did that first of all.
Montgomery: Well, first of all it was Him seeking me and not me seeking Him at all. That's one of the greatest things that the homosexual needs is acceptance and Christ does accept the homosexual. He does require change. A person has to be willing to allow Christ to change him. That was one of the big things that kept me in the lifestyle was I don't want to give all this up. But the more I realized that I really wasn't giving anything up at all to come to know Christ that Christ's life was so much better than the homosexual life.
Ankerberg: So then on one side Christ says, "Repent, turn away from your sin." At the same time, He has to give the power to do that repentance.
Montgomery: Right.
Ankerberg: And you come and you say, "Lord I'm willing, but at the same time I'm a hopeless case if you're expecting me to have the power to do this."
Montgomery: Right. Right. Repentance is a very big part of it, but it's not in our own strength that we repent. We have to be willing to let Christ take it from us and that's what I had to do let Christ take homosexuality out of me. Not me give up homosexuality or rip it out of myself...
Ankerberg: Now Christ did that and then not only did He forgive you of the penalty of the things that you have done and give you salvation but also He changed you on the inside. And where you had never had a heterosexual desire in 26 years, after a year of walking with the Lord one day you were surprised yourself to find out you had a heterosexual desire toward Renee.
Montgomery: Right.
Ankerberg: You actually were attracted to a female finally and eventually you fell in love and you proposed marriage and she surprised you back and accepted and then you've had two wonderful kids. You've come all that way and you knew you had AIDS and God's done all this for you. How do you reconcile in your mind that God hasn't healed you? Because God simply has the power to do it, but He hasn't appropriated that toward you as of yet.
Montgomery: Well, there is an irrevocable law in this universe that I really believe and I think is a very good law. Christ said, "Be not deceived whatsoever a man sows that's what he's going to reap." And I am reaping what I sowed. And I actually do deserve what I have. But that does not negate God's goodness toward me every day. But the fact is that I have sowed and I must also reap.
Ankerberg: Right. And the fact is that all we can do is plead for God's mercy. He still may heal you. And yet at the same time if He doesn't, He's really taken the sting out of death because He has promised us that all those things will be cured immediately and you will exist forever with Christ. There'll be a few years that Renee and the kids won't have you, but the fact is the Lord also promises to be there for every one of those needs and for her as well.
Montgomery: Right.
Ankerberg: Rog, let me ask you this. In terms of the church, how do you feel the church has responded to you and to other people that have become Christians that have been in the homosexual lifestyle, are fighting it? Do you feel that the church has adequately responded to your needs and to others' needs? Or where do we need help?
Montgomery: As a homosexual I do not feel that the church has adequately responded to my needs or to other homosexuals' needs. Because they have not been there offering the answer that the homosexual craves for. He needs an answer. That's what he needs. And the church is not responding to that. As far as AIDS goes most people in the church are afraid of contracting the disease and refuse to help anyone that is involved with AIDS and actually rejects them and shuns them.
Ankerberg: All right. Take the first one. What is the message and do you think the church even believes its own message?
Montgomery: Well, the thing is I don't think the church believes that Jesus Christ can change anyone. And that's the message. The church should be telling the same story that's told for 2,000 years that if you want a new life Christ is the only place you can get it.
Ankerberg: Yeah. So whether a person be a thief or whether he be on drugs or alcohol or a homosexual...
Montgomery: And that includes homosexuality, yes it does.
Ankerberg: Now you've got two wonderful children and all of you God has wonderfully kept from catching AIDS. And yet in spite of the fact that your kids do not have AIDS and you do not have AIDS, let's talk about the church for a moment. When you brought your kids into the nursery, what happened?
Renee: Well, most churches were very good about accepting them. Some churches didn't know anything about Roger, but there was one church in particular that refused the kids entrance into the nursery. And I believe that was just great paranoia on their part. They had not idea about the facts of AIDS and how it's spread. And that was devastating to me because when we had these children I never wanted them to be hurt like that or discriminated against. And it frightens me for their future what they're going to have to put up with because their dad died of AIDS or is dying of AIDS.
Ankerberg: Right. You can certainly understand the fears of the other mothers, okay. And your kids don't have AIDS and so I think that at that point you wonder why it is that they kept you out. But the fact is if your kids did have AIDS, Renee, do you think that the church should still get involved, bring those kids into the nursery? And if so, how?
Renee: Yes. I believe that they should be allowed entrance into the nursery, but I believe that nursery workers should be notified of the AIDS condition or that the children have the AIDS virus and the children should be watched so that they don't bite other children or take other children's rattles and stick them in their mouths. If the children do have the full blown AIDS certainly they should be kept apart because then they could start giving other diseases to the kids, some tuberculosis or something like that.
Ankerberg: Rog, you said that for dealing with the AIDS there are precautions that Christians ought to take in the church.
Montgomery: Yes, there are. Christians should not be stupid. They should be concerned. They shouldn't turn away AIDS members but what they should do is take precautions for themselves and for their family members. I would never prescribe that I would go into a church and contaminate people with them not having the awareness. I think every church member has the right to know there's someone in their congregation that has AIDS.
Ankerberg: Right. What kind of precautions would they take in the nursery?
Montgomery: Well, the first thing they would do is they would keep the kids separate if they had to. The nursery workers would be responsible for watching the child. Second of all, if the child has AIDS then the nursery workers would have to wear gown and gloves. And that wouldn't...
Ankerberg: And that's the whole thing.
Montgomery: ...Right. That would not discriminate against me at all I don't think -- bother me at all.
Ankerberg: In fact, people need to know, Rog, that when a person has AIDS it works both ways that you want the church to accept you and yet any person in that church might be able to kill you just by shaking hands with you. How come?
Montgomery: Right. Well, because they can spread opportunistic infections to me that are not going to bother them but because my immune system is suppressed they could kill me.
Ankerberg: Rog, in terms of, what is the main fear? Why is it that churches don't get involved with people that are in the hospitals that need help? You said that the majority of those dying of AIDS in our hospital, hospitals across the country and there's going to be thousands more in the years ahead that they are wide open to having spiritual help. But you've also said Christians shouldn't just go into a room and say, "Here I am." What should they do?
Montgomery: Well, the first thing the Christian should do is contact the hospital which will be their best source of contact for AIDS patients and make their services available. Because in the coming years that's going to be what health care is going to go toward is toward home care, toward other people volunteering their time in helping AIDS patients. And the church needs to be involved now by making themselves available. And any person dying of AIDS will be more than happy to receive someone that's willing to help them. And that gives the Christian the opportunity to share Christ and hope for them because that's what the AIDS patient needs. He needs hope because he's laying there dying and suffering and he needs someone to tell him life is more than what you're experiencing now and you can experience life through Jesus Christ.
Ankerberg: Okay. Explain that frustration that the homosexual feels so the people understand. What did you feel as a homosexual? And as you looked at the church, you wanted the church to do certain things for you but how did they usually react to you?
Montgomery: Well, I wanted to feel, as a homosexual or as a person, I wanted to feel received and accepted by God and by the church. But unfortunately, I was told since I was a very small child that if you are homosexual then you are automatically damned to hell which is not true at all. But what I wanted the church to do is to give me some answers which I needed and to accept me and to love me in spite of who I was.
Ankerberg: And the answer that you wanted from the church was what?
Montgomery: Was that I could be changed through Jesus Christ. And He was the only one that could change me. And I wanted to know how He could change me. Had He already done it or is He going to do it? Jesus Christ has already done the work for us, we don't have to do it ourselves. And that's what I wanted to hear because I could not change myself. I needed to be changed.
Ankerberg: Now in your counseling, Rog, you're finding that in every church and almost every group of people there are people that are secretly involved with homosexuality. Or tell us about that one little grandmother that wrote to you that was 60 years of age.
Montgomery: All right. The homosexual experience is not unique at all to just outsiders. Homosexuals are in the church. They are in our schools. They are everywhere. Everybody is affected with homosexuality whether they know it or not. We received a letter from a lady. She's 60 years old. She had a children's ministry when she was young and she was molesting children and she finally found a husband and married him and remained silent about who she was for over 40 years and finally after she was 60 years old she contacted us and said, "I need some help. I need to be changed on the inside." And fortunately, we could tell her that that hope has not disappeared in her life. That she could still be changed by Jesus Christ if she would allow Him to.
Ankerberg: You've actually even had leaders in the church. Tell us about some of the people that have secretly contacted you and said that they've struggled with this.
Montgomery: We have a lot of people that contact us and say that, especially leaders of the church, that say, "I struggle with homosexuality, but I don't know what to do about it. I've been in the church. I've been a pastor and a leader of the church for many, many years but I still don't know what to do. I don't know how to overcome." And that's a very sad state of the church.
Ankerberg: What's the answer that you give to those people?
Montgomery: I tell them that what they're struggling with has already been dealt with and the victory has been accomplished because of Jesus Christ's death. Not anything they have to do but as a gift from God they can receive deliverance.
Ankerberg: Okay. Again, talk to this thing of, we've got two sides. One is we want to reach out to the homosexual community and yet, Rog, you've talked about the protection of the children. And talk to that side. What does the church, as well as the general public, the schools, what do they need to know concerning the protection of our children that are coming up and homosexuals that are out there?
Montgomery: For children to be protected from homosexuals or from AIDS?
Ankerberg: From homosexuals. From the recruiters. From being molested and so on.
Montgomery: Well, what the parents need to do is they need to watch their kids and be responsible for them and to realize that there are people out there that would be bent on destroying their lives if they have the opportunity. And to realize that you don't want to build a paranoia, but even as far as Christian camps go, I would not let my child go unsupervised without somebody I trust.
Ankerberg: Okay. But how about in the nursery. How about in the children's church and all of this. Give some illustrations to back up what you're talking about because the folks don't know.
Montgomery: Well, in the church a lot of times there are, in the nursery, there are men that watch over the children, young boys, etc., my wife and I will never leave our daughter or our son in a nursery where there are men in the nursery. We are very protective even at church. We don't promote a paranoia but what we do is we watch our kids very close and we actually do not trust anyone sexually.
Ankerberg: Why, Rog?
Montgomery: Because I know the truth that the people are out there. They may seem like a nice couple. They may seem like a nice spiritual religious person but actually they can be quite the opposite on the inside.
Ankerberg: Back that up with some information of why you say that. In other words, what do you know that the rest of us don't seem to know?
Montgomery: Well, that's what I've experienced. I was in the church for years and everyone thought that I was a nice person, a nice guy and they wouldn't hesitate to leave their children with me. But I knew who I was on the inside and plus meeting people on a day to day basis in the church or through the ministry that call us and say "I'm a pastor but I've been molesting children. What can I do?"
Ankerberg: What about those in the homosexual community. Did they in your many encounters and sexual encounters did you talk about these things? Was that just kind of common knowledge?
Montgomery: That...
Ankerberg: That there were people that would molest young boys along the way?
Montgomery: That was common knowledge because it happened to almost everyone of them. They were sexually molested and that's how they were recruited into the lifestyle.
Ankerberg: And then they would do it to others.
Montgomery: Right.
Ankerberg: Why? Why young boys?
Montgomery: Youth is everything for the homosexual community. The younger you are the more sexual prowess you have. You are reverenced if you are young and the older people suffer a living nightmare.
Ankerberg: How young?
Montgomery: Very young. Sometimes it's, you know, as young as 14 or 15. It's according to how you're looking at that stage in life.
Ankerberg: So what can the church do, Rog, for protection in terms of, what should they do for the young children?
Montgomery: The first thing they've got to do is to realize that no matter who this person may claim himself to be that you need to be wary and you need to accept the responsibility for your own child and not give that responsibility to others so quickly. I mean I can't understand why parents can give away their child to someone they barely even know because he's in the church. I mean that's just not reasonable. I mean, I would never, just because someone is a nursery worker, give my child over to them unquestionably.
Ankerberg: Okay. And then in society where we're trying to have laws now, the gay community is trying to erect laws that they will be allowed to teach our children freely in the schools. What would you say about those kind of laws.
Montgomery: Well, most homosexuals claim that they want to teach unbiased truth. But that's not true. They are recruiters and it's not unbiased truth they want to teach, it's they want to promote their own lifestyle.
Ankerberg: Okay. Rog, so in one sense we want to keep the standards of morality, via the law as well as in society, and on the other side you're saying that we're not reaching enough to care for those that are struggling with homosexuality. And the church alone is the one that has the gospel and has the power of Christ and the person of Christ that can change a persons' life. Not only forgive them of past acts, but can also change them from the inside and make them a new person which is what has happened to you. What's the final word that you would say to maybe somebody that is struggling with homosexuality tonight?
Montgomery: There is hope in Jesus Christ. The main thing Satan uses to keep someone homosexual is the idea that he cannot change or he cannot be changed. But that's a lie that Satan wants us to believe. The truth is that Jesus Christ has already changed us apart from ourselves and there's no self effort because Christ has already done the work for us.
Ankerberg: Roger and Renee, it's great to have you with us and we're going to continue to pray for your health here in the days ahead, and also for you, Renee, and with the children. And you're a wonderful testimony, Rog, of the power of God in your life and we're glad that you would come and share those things with us. Thanks for being with us. Hope to see you next week.